Is it possible for a 23 year-old college student to pass an assignment when he can barely string together a sentence? The answer is “yes.”


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sdkid, on 5/6/2008 6:50:44 PM
Total Posts: 1659, Joined: 1/2/2006
Excellent Bulshoy!

I teach Graduate courses, and I have had to return papers to students that looked similar to your example, though certainly not that bad. Still, it amazes me when I come across somebody in higher education that can not write a simple sentence. What's even more scary is the fact that they do not even realize how poorly their writing deficits reflect on them. They don't see how they wind up looking like morons to anyone reading the work. Unreal.

PS: I nearly dumped Shoutwire from my favorites recently, and this article saved it from the chopping block. Keep it up.
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lankthetank, on 5/6/2008 8:08:26 PM
Total Posts: 342, Joined: 8/29/2006
jazzbone85 wrote:
"How about this: socialize medicine, cut the pay of physicians, beef up welfare, but CUT THE TEACHERS' SALARIES!!! In NYS, a teacher can expect to start out with a bachelors degree (they'll eventually need their masters) working for upwards of $30,000+ plus full medical and dental....for a full year's worth of wor.....oh wait...sorry 10 months of work."
Yep, great idea. What better way to encourage high quality teachers than to cut their salaries?!
I know that I certainly am inspired to work extra hard now that I make less money! Yeah!
Seriously...I'm sorry but that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Leave salaries alone or else you're going to find that all those "bad teachers" you complain about could be much, much worse.
There is plenty of money in America (I know not everyone here is from their, but lankthetank mentioned NYS) to fund schools, pay teachers a good salary, and provide high quality education.


You're right in saying that cutting the salary of a teacher will piss them off, and make them try a lot less...

But paying them more won't do jack either.

For the work they do, compared to other professions, teachers are WAY overpaid. PLUS if you cut some salaries, you can afford for more resources to address the kids who need the extra push.

What I'm saying is, there's a hell of a lot of mismanagement of money in public schools. Shithead assholes will approve a budget increase without even realizing what's benefitting/what's being cut. Meanwhile, a new budget gets cut, and the AP science class is cut down to 1 period a day so that the football team can get new helmets with GPS cheese graters in them.

How about go ahead cut the football team's budget who hasn't won a game in 2 seasons and add a new part time teacher's aide or 2? How about you hold back on the new auditorium when the current one is just fine and beef up the extra help programs???

You can increase funding in some departments without raising taxes. It's called managing a budget, and I feel like people forgot how to do this.

Also...I'm standing by my statement that teacher's are grossly overpaid. Fuck teachers unions. All they do is use kids as leverage for more money...which is wrong. Ask for more money to cope with additional work, inflation, and departmental budgets. Not just because you have to deal with kids. I know a few correctional facility guards that have alright salaries, modest benefits, and they work 12 months out of the year putting up with bullshit from criminals.
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organisedchaos, on 5/6/2008 8:36:26 PM
Total Posts: 13, Joined: 4/23/2008
something that hasnt been mentioned yet is that the kid could be dyslexic. in which case he/she is at a disadvantage with written work, regardless of how much they know.
not that im saying its likely, but you have to grade someone according to their knowledge of the subject, not their poor english. clearly, this wasnt an english paper anyway.
considering now you need degrees and experience to work in pretty much any area that doesnt consist of production work or making sandwiches im really not suprised that people are passing without basic skills. there arent that many jobs in unskilled labour.
also, it IS the responsibility of the student to learn. in the statement about someone who was unable to draw...well, then they should fail the technical drawing component, and not the other areas. this should be reflected in their grades and transcript, and if an employer overlooks the areas the student was unskilled in...thats their problem. this obviously isnt how the system works, they just say "oh, degree in blah, youre HIRED". check the transcripts, not the resumes or certificates.
im not suggesting teachers dont lie when it comes to grades, ESPECIALLY with students who have disabilities, but you should grade the content of the given subject.
about 6 years ago i submitted an assignment which required a basic website with certain basic features. i went above and beyond the requirements, and scored 0 /20because my index.html was labelled frameset.html (a perfectly acceptable filename FOR WEBSITES USING FRAMES), corrected it and resubmitted it before grading, the teacher claimed he never got it, found it later and refused to change my grade. meanwhile, another student in my class submitted one page, with one table, with 3 empty cells on it. he scored 16/20.
that is total bullshit.
personally id like to see student bias targeted before worrying about failing dumb shits. this teacher went out of his way to fail me on more than just this assignment, regardless of the fact that when other students had issues they often came to me for help because i knew my shit.
oh, in case you were wondering, he hated me because i was seen as a "bully" and "troublemaker". a load of crap, but whatever.
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Urrelles, on 5/6/2008 9:10:12 PM
Total Posts: 730, Joined: 5/12/2007
Actually Lankthetank, paying them more will result in better teachers.

The current teaches will get weeded out as more professionsals start entering the teaching market for the pay. The bar for teaching will rise as more and more good teachers start showing up and showing enthusiasm for teaching kids.

The only probem is will the schools change their grading and teaching methods to allow these teachers the ability to fail student etc.
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jazzbone85, on 5/7/2008 12:06:21 AM
Total Posts: 67, Joined: 4/24/2006
@lankthetank

Dude, trust me they aren't over-payed. I'm guessing you haven't spent too much time in the presence of 20+ 7th graders anytime recently, have you?

Being a teacher isn't an easy job, and if you think otherwise then I'm sorry but you are misinformed.

I think perhaps you should stop considering the "difficulty" of a job and instead focus on the value of it. If you ask me there can't be any doctors, veterinarians, lawyers, etc., without teachers, so which is more valuable?

But regardless, I agree with you that schools mismanage money often - especially when it comes to sports and non-core classes.
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nodnarb232001, on 5/7/2008 12:34:51 AM
Total Posts: 1721, Joined: 8/20/2006
@sailrish

"Mark my words, this shit is only going to get worse as time goes on. FFS they are already considering making text speak an official language!"
- Please tell me that's sarcasm. Please, PLEASE, tell me it's not true.
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bulshoy, on 5/7/2008 5:25:51 AM
Total Posts: 6132, Joined: 11/15/2005
"in which case he/she is at a disadvantage with written work, regardless of how much they know."

My wife is dyslexic. She can still write a readable paragraph.

I really doubt this guy is dyslexic, and if he is, he doesn't know. He's a jock / asshole.
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lankthetank, on 5/7/2008 7:49:11 AM
Total Posts: 344, Joined: 8/29/2006
Urrelles wrote:
Actually Lankthetank, paying them more will result in better teachers.
The current teaches will get weeded out as more professionsals start entering the teaching market for the pay. The bar for teaching will rise as more and more good teachers start showing up and showing enthusiasm for teaching kids.
The only probem is will the schools change their grading and teaching methods to allow these teachers the ability to fail student etc.


I see what you're saying but you're talking as an idealist. What you're saying isn't a practical reality. Many teachers do their best until they're tenured, and then they become lazy. They have this ultimate job security protected by viscious unions. Firing a teacher for something short of murder, rape, or sex with a kid becomes extremely difficult.

Now I agree with paying more for more QUALIFIED teachers (i.e. masters vs. bachelors). But what the system is doing is CONSTANTLY pumping money into teachers' salaries. Starting salaries for teachers are increasing, but there's no concensus on raising the standards for them.

Giving more money doesn't mean the quality or the standards are raised. That takes enforcement, and no one seems to want to do that.


<quote="jazzbone85">@lankthetank
Dude, trust me they aren't over-payed. I'm guessing you haven't spent too much time in the presence of 20+ 7th graders anytime recently, have you?
Being a teacher isn't an easy job, and if you think otherwise then I'm sorry but you are misinformed.
I think perhaps you should stop considering the "difficulty" of a job and instead focus on the value of it. If you ask me there can't be any doctors, veterinarians, lawyers, etc., without teachers, so which is more valuable?
But regardless, I agree with you that schools mismanage money often - especially when it comes to sports and non-core classes.

1.) Teachers aren't the only one with tough jobs. 7th graders are assholes, they're annoying, and getting through to them is a challenge...

BUT EVERY JOB HAS ITS CHALLENGES. Don't give me the "holier than thou" talk about teachers. There are plenty of jobs that pay less than teachers that have their own set of challenges, yet require the same level of education as a teacher.

And again...value of education. I've had fantastic teachers who have been teaching for a month (and make "only" $30k + benefits) and I've had terrible teachers who've been teaching for 20+ years (and make $60k + Benefits). Money doesn't mean value, in fact, too often, more money has made people lazy (i.e. scheduled raises promotes laziness..."If I wait it out, I'll get a raise...I'm tenured, so I'm good..").

Also, what always gets me about the value of an education is the state tests. The NY Regents exams in Physics and Chemistry in recent years has been exceptionally tough. While these subjects are traditionally difficult, the pass/fail ratios are terrible (they've been improving however).

Many criticize the more successful teachers by saying they only teach the test, and how to pass it. Well, if the test is the established standard by which students must know, then teach the damn test!! The kids are learning what they need to know, and no, it's not cheating.

2.)While I'm all for supporting the core classes, non-core classes help give the educational diversity and excellence that we need more of in schools. Music and the Arts are necessary, as are some of the home-ec and business style classes. My beef is against the sports. I mean...have the sports, fund them, encourage kids to join...but encourage booster clubs to support part of the teams. Make the kids have fundraisers to buy some items. Too often, work by the kids is circumvented and a budget increase request makes up for it.


The problem all stems back to money mismanagement, and the need for great reform on the public school system (of NYS anyway). It's just that the teachers unions are so active that no one gets the chance to propose any reform.

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niallmc66, on 5/7/2008 8:27:02 AM
Total Posts: 3, Joined: 7/21/2007
If college students are struggling with basic spelling and grammar they should'nt even be in college.Teachers should'nt have to pass failing students just to please the college,get it sorted!!
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Flik, on 5/7/2008 8:47:45 AM
Total Posts: 516, Joined: 12/13/2007
niallmc66 wrote:
If college students are struggling with basic spelling and grammar they should'nt even be in college.Teachers should'nt have to pass failing students just to please the college,get it sorted!!

Thank god my dad was an english teacher,I would be spelling like this guy if he was'nt lol.Well maybe not that badly.

Ask you dad how to contract words.
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