This was an essay I had to write for one of my classes. Hope you guys enjoy it and btw Libertarianism is different from Libertarians. Ones a political position and the other is a philosophical standpoint on free will.


Related Links:
There Is No Freewill
We Will Be Telling The Stories Of The Meaning Of Freedom
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dragon64, on 4/17/2008 4:43:08 AM
Total Posts: 54, Joined: 10/4/2007
@ Anonymity - I posted a blog on this too (kind of), I guess you could call it somewhere near hard determinism, but I'm not too sure, I never did philosophy or psychology.

Anyway, I think you're confusing the uncertainty principle - just because you can't know position and momentum simultaneously as knowing one means changing the other - it doesn't mean to say that both don't exist. And because we don't understand quantum mechanics doesn't mean they can't be. After all; God is a perfectly reasonable explanation for why there are humans on the earth, until one understands evolution and how the world came to be. God is still a reasonable argument to explain the unpredictability of quantum particles/waves, maybe he is pulling lots of tiny strings! Or maybe they ARE God (God's Debris). I like to think we just don't fully understand them yet, but that it is possible.

I also think you're placing far too much faith in the idea that things come from nowhere. I don't believe that the mind exists externally from the body. And I believe that every thought is a (unfathomably) complex reaction of past & present experience combined with our genetics. In effect that consciousness is simply a tool of the CNS in dealing with complex tasks.

Free will exists to the extent that we think that it does. One could look at the future, think it is determined and do nothing because they think their future will be the same. Whereas if they worked for it their future would be different. It doesn't mean it isn't determined, because they never actually had the choice- their past experiences and biology already defined the choice. The processing of these factors is what we interpret as consciousness.

ma post: http://www.shoutwire.com/ecomments/147857/Fate_The_Future_Our_Place_in
_The_World
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[VaMpIrE^F00D], on 4/17/2008 6:15:52 AM
Total Posts: 829, Joined: 1/4/2006
@Anon

There is a difference in the fact that the equation is too big to predict things, but if the equation exists it still means we are determined.
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RightwingRadical, on 4/17/2008 8:54:54 AM
Total Posts: 144, Joined: 4/4/2007
"We all have underlying positions of character, geographic location, peers, an inumerable amount of influences on our personality and psyche. All of these mould who we are and are just a giant mathematical equation as to what the outcome of an event will be"

influencing b/h is not the same as determining it. what if,for example, our personality and our peers are influencing us to go in different ways, we will have to make a choice between the two avenues or develope a third choice, this is free will. plus if you drop the concept of free will we'll need to revamp the entire legal system as no one should go to jail for something they had no control over. someone beats the shit out of you i bet you're going to think they had a choice in the matter (at least come sentencing time)
the deterministic line of thinking not only scares me it also has been proven wrong. many of the worst dictators tried to create a new human through a tighter control of the socialization process believing that humans are essentially blank slates that you can socialize in a predictable way to create a determined psychi in the citizenry that is useful to your ends. Hitler had the Aryan Man, Stalin had the Soviet Man and Pol Pot had his Men of Year Zero. none of them worked out because even in the face of obscene amounts of pressure to conform too many people chose their own path.
we may be influence by many factors both internal and external but the very reason why we need philosphy is b/c people have the ability to act towards their own demise, unlike plants or animals. it is precisly b/c we can make good or bad choices that we need philosophy. If it is more than influence that is trying to be argued than i believe Rand (how can you dicuss libertarianism and free will without her, even if she hated libertarians she did furnish most of their arguments)said it best while discussing free will and the law of identity "we don't have a choice about our own nature - its identity is firm - but [we do have a choice] about our action"
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[VaMpIrE^F00D], on 4/17/2008 9:31:48 AM
Total Posts: 830, Joined: 1/4/2006
"influencing b/h is not the same as determining it. what if,for example, our personality and our peers are influencing us to go in different ways, we will have to make a choice between the two avenues or develope a third choice,"

The preceeding events that have happened in our lives determine what decision we make. Every experience we have moulds our personality, though it can be determined from all these experiences where we will be, what we will experience.

"you drop the concept of free will we'll need to revamp the entire legal system as no one should go to jail for something they had no control over."

Correct, though the legal system is not about making us be morally correct, it's simply about making a functional and productive society.

"the deterministic line of thinking not only scares me it also has been proven wrong"

If that was the case there would be no freewill and determinism debate, it's an ongoing debate that will probably be never solved. It has definately not been proven wrong, just proved it would have grave implications for society if determinism was true.

"he worst dictators tried to create a new human through a tighter control of the socialization process believing that humans are essentially blank slates that you can socialize in a predictable way to create a determined psychi in the citizenry that is useful to your ends"

I am not saying that it can be used in anyway as it can't, the whole equation needed to show a determinism would be so long and include so many variables it's incalculabe for a lifetime. Nevertheless if there was a being possible to perform this calculation and research all the variables, this still could prove a determinism.

"we don't have a choice about our own nature - its identity is firm - but [we do have a choice] about our action"

That simply relates to philosophy of mind to try and cop out of the freewill and determinsm debate. The philosophy of mind debate is in exactly the same position as the determinism debate.

Ironically I believe in a separate sort of mind, yet still a determinism ;-)

Anyway Rightwing I think this is the main problem for you

"the deterministic line of thinking not only scares me"

That causes a problem of bias on your part ;-)
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AetherBob, on 4/17/2008 2:17:21 PM
Total Posts: 60, Joined: 3/15/2008
I recommend Alan Watts. http://deoxy.org/watts.htm
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Immaculate1, on 5/1/2008 5:11:17 PM
Total Posts: 6945, Joined: 7/16/2006
You folks simply have no free will because all your base are belong to me. :P

Yep, in the end, what it comes down to, it's that simple.
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